Wednesday, July 20, 2011

My thoughts on recent post

Its been a long time since i have visited the blog as i believe the issue with Hope Thailand have been fully explained.

I will take this weekend to refresh the blog so we can better read some of the post. I must admit there are many people who have left Hope frustrated and angry. Over the years, i have seen many good friends leave the church but the good thing is many of us are still in touch with one another proving that moving church does not mean burning bridges.

I know many people who have left Hope have in one way or another have been let down by the church in one or another. Lets not be bitter but be better

if you will allow me to say a few words in regards to the Hope Movement.

Firstly, I am in no doubt Hope started out with the full intention of bringing the gospel to the world, which is why many of the pioneer leaders of Hope came from OCS in Australia ad were all previous leaders from other churches . Hope have no evil intention or are a satanic or a cult church, they have good intention but really really bad execution, that have caused some issues along the way.

Putting aside the sinful teachings taught by PN and Dr Joseph in regards to idol worship and the frivolous ways money was used in the Thai Churches . Generally most other overseas pastor have preached in line with the gospel.

I have learned in all my years as a christian both in the traditional and charismatic movement that great principles alone do not make a great church. Marxist ideology is one simple example, in its purest form; its the epitome of a heaven on earth where classless society work for the common good. But human nature is inherently evil and susceptible to greed, lust and power.

Same is true in Hope movement, it had great blue print but bad execution plan no doubt a side-effect from the teaching method of Dr Kreingsak.

Lets look at

1. Shepherding

Its a good mechanism for building the body of christ, I don't disagree that it will be good to have someone to mentor you and build you up. In an ideal world, a strong and well respected christian should mentor and help you grow, but in reality we find due to manpower shortage people are just assign over you sometimes just base on seniority. I have seen new christian less then 3 month shepherding and doing following up. ( Good intention but bad execution)

In all seriousness, is there really a huge difference between a 3 month christian and a new believer ? Young christian have tendency to be over zealous teach the wrong thing or even say the wrong things. In some cases when the group grow too fast, many have become a Care leader or Asst. Care leader in 6 months.

1 Tim 3 says it all

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,a he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

Personally, we should not force and push people to be shepherd or make shepherding compulsory for all members.

What I think should be the best way forward is

1. Get people to join bible study group or a same gender bible group if they wish to know more about the bible and set a mature christian as a big bro or sister.

2. Make one-to-one mentoring a privilege. If a person wants a personal mentor let him or her seek out the mentor and if the person wants to mentor someone let him or her make the effort. Good example is Elijah and Elisha. If they are ready God will move the heart

If indeed we have been hurt by the Shepherd experience lets all just forgive and move on. Dont let hurt stop you from trusting people.

Amen

88 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your sharing. Some of us might feel proud of ourselves for being appointed a leader, even though leadership posts such as shepherd and cell leader aren't suppose to come with much authority. It's comparatively difficult to be appointed as a cell leader elsewhere, since usually it's about 20 members to 1 cell leader, and some places they don't hold cell groups at all. At my Hope branch, it's about 6 cell leaders in a cell group of about 10 members, so cell leaders are actually more than members. Though such organization structure appeared innocent, I'm unable to arrive at any logical explanation for such absurdity except it's cleverly planned. What's the point of having so many "leaders"? Why the absurdity of more leaders to actual members?

I felt the prospect of being appointed a shepherd or a cell leader is actually being used as an incentive for young people to do more for the movement, from simply serving more frequently to other doubtful practices such as disciplining and monitoring members on behalf of the movement and follow-up on members who had left. Since someone is appointed to these posts, being disagreeable with the senior leadership certainly wouldn't get u very far in their movement.

Since these cell leaders and shepherds are at the frontline of the policies sanctioned by Hope movement, they would bear the fallout should these disciplining practices went awry and victimized members decide to take legal actions. Bearing in mind the fact that the movement doesn't have any authority over members, cell leaders and shepherds couldn't have claimed that they are instructed to discipline members, simply because neither the cell leaders nor any members are under any obligations to the movement at the very first place.

Liberally assigning such leadership posts and misleading young people to go overboard doesn't cost Hope anything, so the more the merrier. The movement should cancel shepherding altogether, and members who wishes to be mentored by another senior members or anyone even from another movement shouldn't be monitored.

Anonymous said...

“Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”
When I think about the Hope, I see that Hope is not exempted from the corruption that power brings. And we see how that love of power led our founder to deny the church that he founded and the president to split the churches in Thailand rather than step down to be restored.
In the local scenario, I see evidence also of the corruption of power. Once power is tasted or seen to be tasted, I see that quite a few people desire the power that comes with authority and they want to become leaders even though character wise, they should not have been leaders in the first place because of the troubles they have since brought to others. But unfortunately, Hope allows it and these people know how to play Hope’s games which is joining all activities, being obedient to the leaders, saying the right things, etc and being able to perform and thus they are appointed to become a leader. This gives them the right to say that they are appointed by God and so you must obey in line with Hope’s divine authority teaching. But honestly speaking, are they really appointed by God or men ? Especially, when I see look at their character, I fear for those they lead because we have always been taught that we produce after our own kind. And yet because of lack of leaders, we put leaders up quickly. Quality of leadership is important. It is better to have less leaders and more leaders in training rather to give leadership title to those not qualified as incentive.

HIM should learn from the mistakes of Hope Movement on how the teaching on divine authority has led to abuses and go back and teach biblical leadership based on the Word of God.

Anonymous said...

Eagle Eye,

You have ignored the requests of several bloggers to moderate the comments posted on this blog.

You need to be aware that the Lord may hold you personally responsible for facilitating those comments on this blog that are unGodly and turning a blind eye to them (the pun is fully intended). Remember how Eli was held personally responsible for the unGodly actions of his sons? For your own sake I urge you to act without further delay.

Hopefully you do not think that I have just posted a whole heap of rubbish. If you do then that would be most unfortunate when you stand before the Lord on judgment day.

Software Development Malaysia said...

Nice Sharing!
We specialize in providing innovate and high quality solutions that helps our clients in gaining an edge over their competitors. We ensure that we have a good understanding of the client's expectations, goals and objectives before developing a project.

Thanks

Video Chat Software said...

Hi,
I have read your post and I admire the information which you offered here. It is really good read to me.

Thanks for sharing information!

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous at August 24, 2011 6:40 AM

Fuck you! If you can't stand the heat in the internet, then fuck off back to your self-serving CG, whatsoever.

What can you do? Sue me lah!

Anonymous said...

Ah yes, another typically well reasoned contribution devoid of the hot headed emotion that is so common amongst some of the bloggers here.

Assuming you are not Eagle Eye (who by the way does tend to write in more elegant prose) – why do you feel compelled to hijack my message to Eagle Eye with your foul mouthed rant? Instead of using your powers of reasoning it is much more in your nature to just lay it all out in the open eh?

Your choice of language does represent a true reflection of your personality does it not?

All you have achieved with your rant is damage to your personal standing and bring irretreivable damage to the case you are attempting to make.

In answer to your question, no I am not going to sue you. That would be descending to the unbiblical level of your conduct. I will just let the Lord deal with you as He sees fit. Either way He will be very fair about it.

Oh by the way I'm not in HIM and don't belong to a HIM CG. But then again in your fit of passion that possibility never entered your mind did it?

Anonymous said...

Anyone fair minded enough to stand up and be counted to bring admonition to the previous blogger for personally abusing me and for the liberal use of obscene expletives on this blog?

Come on, you can do it. Surely you are not so biased in your own minds that you can't tell when the line to decent behaviour has been crossed?

And Eagle Eye, where are you by the way? Surely you are not condoning personal abuse and the use of obscene expletives on your blog?

Anonymous said...

Are these the words of a Malaysian Christian? Complete with a "Lah" to conclude the sentence?

Then again do Malaysian Christians use such colouful language that originates from the pit of hell?

Weak is the fear of the Lord in this one Obi-wan. Darkness I sense in this person.

Anonymous said...

It's a good blog. I do believe Hope members do read it. Hope this would remind them to improve.

Anonymous said...

You want HIM members to swear and curse like sailors like a certain embittered person?

You have no issue with the use of obscene profanities on this blog?

Is your moral compass functioning or are you so biased against HIM that your reasoning has become futile and you even endorse the use of foul language and abuse?

You don't even think that our obscene abuser has misbehaved in any way shape or form?

You appear to have one rule for one and one rule for another? Wake up before your bias and personal prejudices are further exposed before all.

Anonymous said...

Quote from the Book Pentecostal Takeover by Lee Stanford.
Satan is utilizing the false church to prepare the way for the Antichrist to come into power. The term Antichrist does not merely mean to be against Christ. In Biblical context, it means false christ. It is the deceivers in the Church today who are paving the path for Satan's unholy trinity to deceive the entire world during the Great Tribulation Period. Deception in the Church is sin.

Anonymous said...

And does Lee Stanford use profanities in his book? I don't believe he does.

So which church or churches do you say form the false church?

Deception in the church is certainly sin. Deception on this blog is sin. The use of profanities is sin.

Attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan is a particularly deadly sin. Not that any sin is anything other than deadly but you get the point.

Funny how some sins catch your attention while you gloss over other sins as though they did not exist.

By the way, another word of warning. If by your words you meant to say that pentecostal churches are the false church then for your own sake you had better be right. If you are not, judgment for attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan may be around the corner.

I am not threatening you. Just pointing out how careful and God fearing we all must be in matters of this nature.

Level accusations against any part of the church of Jesus Christ at your own risk.

Anonymous said...

Just read some extracts from Lee Stanford's book. The content I read causes great concern.

How do I summarize my thoughts on the substance of the book without sinning?

Perhaps the best way is simply to say that I would never write or allege anything of that nature about any part of the church of Jesus Christ whether the church is Evangelical, Catholic, Baptist, Coptic, Adventist, Independent, Pentecostal, Anglican, Methodist, etc etc.

Hopefully the discerning readers of this blog can tell the difference between thoughtful analysis and ideological ranting.

Anonymous said...

The true works of the Holy Spirit will never mix good and evil. The Apostle John wrote very clear about it. Fruits of rightenousness or unrightenousness will be seen by everyone. No gift of discernment is needed. Just observation.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your wise observation. No one operating out of the true fruit of the Holy Spirit therefore could have abused me so obscenely with profanity several posts ago. Thank you for discrediting that blogger so comprehensively and publicly for all to read.

On the other hand you seem totally focused on attacking the Pentecostal church in general? Well you are entitled to your opinion. Just stay clear of the Lord’s judgment please for your own sake

Anonymous said...

Let me quote an old book titled War on the Saints (1912)written by Evan Roberts a leader of a great revival on the issue of spiritual counterfeit.

CAN "HONEST SOULS" BE DECEIVED?

One prevailing idea, which such believers have deeply embedded in their minds, is that "honest seekers after God" will not be allowed to be deceived. That this is one of Satan's lies, to lure such seekers into a false position of safety, is proved by the history of the Church during the past two thousand years, for every "wile of error" which has borne sad fruit throughout this period, first laid hold of devoted believers who were "honest souls." The errors among groups of such believers, some well known to the present generation, all began among "honest" children of God, baptized with the Holy Ghost; and all so sure that, knowing the side-tracking of others before them, they would never be caught by the wiles of Satan. Yet they, too, have been deceived by lying spirits, counterfeiting the workings of God in the higher ranges of the spiritual life.

Among such devoted believers, lying spirits have worked on their determination literally to obey the Scriptures, and by misuse of the letter of the written Word, have pushed them into phases of unbalanced truth, with resulting erroneous practices. Many who have suffered for their adherence to these "Biblical commands," firmly believe that they are martyrs suffering for Christ. The world calls these devoted ones "cranks," and "fanatics," yet they give evidence of highest devotion and love to the Person of the Lord, and could be delivered, if they but understood why the powers of darkness deceived them, and the way of freedom from their power.

The aftermath of the Revival in Wales, which was a true work of God, revealed numbers of "honest souls" swept off their feet by evil supernatural powers, which they were not able to discern from the true working of God. And later still than the Welsh Revival, there have been other "movements," with large numbers of earnest servants of God swept into deception, through the wiles of deceiving spirits counterfeiting the workings of God; all "honest souls," deceived by the subtle foe, and certain to be led on into still deeper deception, notwithstanding their honesty and earnestness, if they are not awakened to "return to soberness" and recovery out of the snare of the devil into which they have fallen (2 Tim. 2: 26).

http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Chap03.html

Anonymous said...

The editors of the apostasynow website have issued the following disclaimer in respect of Jessie Penn-Lewis who wrote the book "War on the Saints" with Evan Roberts. It gives us an interesting insight as to the angle they are coming from.

Check it out for yourself at:
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/

Disclaimer


WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN WOMEN PREACHERS

It is necessary for us to add this disclaimer since War On The Saints was written by a woman, and according to the ordinance of our Bible, women are not allowed to teach nor to usurp authority over men, but to be in silence (1 Tim. 2:12). We do not believe in women pastors, and we will never attend any religious meeting presided over by any woman. You will see our formal pronouncement on the matter of women preachers in chapter 7 of THE GREAT DREAM.

Anonymous said...

To further clarify the picture the forward to War on the Saints (The Full Text Unabridged Edition) contains a number of sentences as follows:

“In this century God has restored to the Church a good measure of the pentecostal power and authority so vividly demonstrated in the early church. Numbers of believers received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit”.

And the rear flap to the book contains the following sentence:

“The Church of Jesus Christ today is in dire need of men and women who will use the gifts of the Spirit and exercise spiritual authority over demons.”

Anonymous said...

Some may have left Hope but Hope has never left them based on the spirit shown by some...

Anonymous said...

If the last post was intended as a compliment then it is most welcome. Certainly leaving Hope has not diminished the rigorous spirit I adopt in scrutinising and considering all assertions made by others.

If the last post was intended as a criticism, then it is most interesting that the blogger has chosen not to expound on his/her previous views and provide reasons in support of those views. Instead the blogger appears to have chosen to question my “spirit”.

Playing the person instead of the issue is tantamount to an admission by the blogger that his/her views are indefensible. If my views are wrong, why would it be necessary to play the person?

There is nothing inherently wrong in quoting extracts from War on the Saints (The Full Text Unabridged Edition) verbatim nor is there anything inherently wrong in quoting the views of the editors of the apostasynow website on women verbatim. It just so happens that those quotes present a viewpoint that is inconvenient as far as the blogger is concerned.

Please provide more reasoning in support your views and refrain from attacking bloggers who do not agree with you.

If it is in your nature to attack bloggers who do not agree with you then your time may be better spent rebuking the person who cursed and swore obscenely at me several weeks ago. Then again you and that person could be the same person.

Anonymous said...

Have you noticed that the bloggers who do not want Eagle Eye to moderate this blog, cry out for “free speech” and rally against “censorship” are the same bloggers who delight in levelling abuse at others who have views of life different from their own?

One rule for themselves and another rule for others unfortunate enough to disagree with them.

Properly moderated blogs and discussion forums would never permit this level of behaviour.

Anonymous said...

Anon, u r so funny... Hahaha...

Anonymous said...

Your words speak for themselves

Anonymous said...

Let me share another testimony on supernatural counterfeit written by a Pastor and missionaire in the 70's.


http://www.midnightcry.org/pdf/tongues.pdf


LESSONS LEARNED BY EXPERIENCE
I have learned four lessons through experiences in testing tongues in people who have voluntarily approached me and my colleagues during the past few years. First, I have been astonished at the high percentage of demonic tongues encountered. Counselees include people from virtually all sections of the United States, people from various age groups and occupations and denominations.
Many, but not all, used their tongues largely in private devotions. Some had doubts about the validity of their gift, but many were quite confident
that the test would demonstrate a true gift from the Holy Spirit. But the shocking fact is that over 90 percent of those who requested a tongues test had a demonic tongue.
Some Pentecostals and charismatics admit that demonic tongues exist.
Yet most feel clear that their own tongue is genuine. One young lady asked me for a demonic test since she felt evil influences in her life. Routine questioning revealed she had come from a Pentecostal church and possessed a tongues gift, but she felt confident that her gift was divine. She informed me during the interview that a lady in her home church with
discernment had assured her that her tongue was of the Holy Spirit.
When the deliverance session was later conducted we encountered a
spirit named Jesus. He hated the Lord Jesus Christ. I was uspicious because past experience had revealed that tongues demons often deceptively adopt the name Jesus. Upon my inquiry the demon admitted he was the spirit giving her her gift of tongues, rather than the Holy Spirit.
A second lesson I have learned is that strong Christians can be invaded by a tongues demon. In the course of a year’s Sunday School lessons on the deeper life I spent several weeks exploring the gifts of the Spirit with my
adult class. I did not know of a single person in the class that day with a tongues gift. I closed my treatment of tongues with a simple statement that
anyone with a gift of tongues should make certain the gift was not a satanic counterfeit, since missionaries have reported hearing tongues speakers blaspheming in the language they had used on the mission field. Tongues should be tested.
At that time I had never tested any tongues, nor had my colleagues. But soon someone asked for a test. The only person from the class who approached me was an outstanding Christian lady — capable, talented, balanced, dependable, a soulwinner. She said she never used her tongue
except in private. As she related her spiritual experience of some years ago - 13 -
to my wife and me I just could not imagine that this fine believer could have a tongues demon. I told her so.
But she was not satisfied. She talked with my colleague later. Upon testing we found a tongue quite manifestly of the Holy Spirit. But soon another tongue appeared in the same woman—a tongue that was bitter and
hateful toward Christ, toward her and toward us. The true tongue was clear evidence to me that her sanctification was genuine. Yet is was undeniable that a demonic tongues spirit inhabited her.

Anonymous said...

yawn... Blah blah blah...

Anonymous said...

can, can, also can...

Anonymous said...

Vatican weighs in on cult-like group in Legion
by NICOLE WINFIELD Associated Press Updated 06:36 AM Oct 18, 2011


VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican has proposed giving hundreds of women who live like nuns within the troubled Legion of Christ order greater autonomy after a Holy See investigation found serious problems in their regimented communities.

The pope's delegate running the Legion, Cardinal Velasio De Paolis, said in a letter published Monday that the problems of the consecrated women of the Legion's lay branch were "many and challenging." Of particular concern is that they have no legal status in the church.

In a 2010 Associated Press expose, former consecrated women spoke of the cult-like conditions they lived in, with rules dictating nearly every minute of their day - from how they ate to what they watched on TV - all in the name of God's will.

The women described emotional and spiritual abuse they suffered if they questioned their vocation, and of how they would be cast aside if their spiritual directors no longer had any need for them.

Anonymous said...

The Vatican ordered the investigation after word of the abuses emerged during a broader Vatican probe into the Legion, a conservative order founded in Mexico in 1941 by the late Rev. Marciel Maciel.

After decades of denying allegations Maciel was a pedophile, the Legion in 2009 began admitting to his double life: that he sexually abused seminarians and had fathered at least three children with two women.

The revelations have put the Legion in a tailspin and cast a shadow over the Vatican since Pope John Paul II had held Maciel up as a model for his orthodoxy and ability to attract new priests and donations.

Maciel had created the consecrated branch of the Legion's lay movement Regnum Christi primarily as a fundraising tool and to provide unpaid teachers for Legion-owned schools. The consecrated women also run youth programs and work to recruit new members.

The members, who at their height numbered about 900 women and a few dozen men, make promises of poverty, chastity and obedience like nuns do, though they enjoy none of the legal protections nuns have that make it difficult for their orders to kick them out.

Legion officials have repeatedly declined to provide statistics on how many remain in the movement. Former members say many women have either left amidst the Maciel scandal or are taking time to discern whether they still have a vocation.

In his letter, De Paolis said those who remain are happy and providing a valuable service to the church.

"However, the issues regarding personal and community life that have emerged from this same visitation on an institutional level initially appear to be many and challenging," he wrote.

He said the women should have greater autonomy from the Legion, in both their personal and community lives, and that they need a legal status that corresponds to canon law.

They would, however, maintain a "link of participation" with the Legion.

De Paolis said the women would have to rewrite their norms, but that for now the statutes guiding their life that were approved by the Vatican in 2004 remain intact.

One of the great scandals about the consecrated women is that they were told the Vatican in 2004 had approved a set of over 1,000 rules dictating how they were to behave when, in fact, the Vatican approved only about 150 general norms.

Genevieve Kineke, who runs an active blog read by many former Legion and consecrated members, said she hoped the autonomy envisaged by De Paolis will enable current and future members to truly discern whether they have a vocation. Up until recently, some 18-year-olds would make their lifelong commitments to being consecrated after a mere six-week candidacy program.

"As long as the delegate relies on the existing superiors to guide his actions concerning these individuals, then we have a closed circle of conformity to the same methodology," Kineke said in an email.

While current consecrated members say they are happy and participating in the reform process, their choices haven't always pleased their parents.

Kelly Tuttle said she grieves daily for the loss of her 27-year-old daughter, who gave up a partial medical scholarship to the University of Dayton, Ohio to become consecrated in 2003.

"The Katie that I knew, I grieve for that Katie," Tuttle told the AP. "There's only the shell of her left. Because they've taken the person that I knew as my daughter, who was young and vibrant, intellectually alive and athletic, and they've taken that out of her."

"It's like she's dead and gone," she said.

Katie Tuttle declined to be interviewed, according to a Legion spokesman.

Anonymous said...

The Shepherding Movement (sometimes called the "Discipleship Movement") was an influential and controversial movement within some British and American charismatic churches, emerging in the 1970s and early 1980s. The doctrine of the movement emphasized the "one another" passages of the New Testament, and the mentoring relationship described in 2 Timothy.

It began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.[citation needed] They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another.[citation needed] Ern Baxter was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the "Fort Lauderdale Five."

Anonymous said...

The Shepherding Movement (sometimes called the "Discipleship Movement") was an influential and controversial movement within some British and American charismatic churches, emerging in the 1970s and early 1980s. The doctrine of the movement emphasized the "one another" passages of the New Testament, and the mentoring relationship described in 2 Timothy.

It began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.[citation needed] They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another.[citation needed] Ern Baxter was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the "Fort Lauderdale Five."

Anonymous said...

It is time for someone to share a good story or testimony.

All this morbid and negative stuff, assuming we were to accept its truth (which is far from a given), only presents an unbalanced view of Christ's church.

If you keep looking for dirt - you will find it. If you look for extreme examples of bad behavior -you will find it.

In fact there are extreme examples of bad behavior by bloggers on this blog who cannot restrict themselves to using civil words. It is just a pity that counterfeit tongues seem to be causing more angst that expletives and obscenities. Does the use of expletives and obscenities glorify the Lord?

Get a proper grip on life and deal with the sin within this blog before looking for sin elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

Any resemblence with other movements is just pure coincidence...

Anonymous said...

Yes, HIM is doing a great job so far! All the issues, stories, and accusations brought up by the different bloggers are purely false and should not be taken as accurate or true.

In fact, these bloggers have displayed bad behaviours, e.g. using vulgarities which have discredited themselves. So what they mentioned cannot be true or trusted. They are a fake and liar to the core.

The truth is that there are plenty of good stuff and bad stuff with the church. Speak only the good ones, and keep to yourself the bad ones, least you stumble other believers and sin. Take for example the mass persecution and killings of the Jews by the Nazi. You mean the Nazi never do any good at all? Did they not fight for the good and to protect their fellow countrymen?

Yes, please, christians, speak only the good and glorify God. Do not speak anything that is false and bad, because God's judgement will be on you, you who tarnish the good name of His church and the good things done by the church. Anon is right, get a proper grip on life and deal with the sin within this blog, your personal sin before looking for sin elsewhere, e.g in HIM, etc.

Anonymous said...

"If you keep looking for dirt - you will find it. If you look for extreme examples of bad behavior -you will find it."

Similar, if you keep looking for heaven - you will find it. If you look for extreme examples of bad behavior -you will find it everywhere, even in hardcore criminals to their loved ones.

So who needs God and the church if everything is so good?

Anonymous said...

Ask yourself a few simple questions before you spout more gibberish.

How do you bring an accusation against a person properly?

How does the Lord Himself state in His Word that we should bring accusations? Amongst other things there is a requirement for at least 2 witnesses, and the accusation should be brought in person before the elders. What does that mean in practical terms? In means that accusers should be prepared to be identified and not anonymous persons.

If you want to take a secular and non-faith based approach to the issue, then ask how an accusation should be brought against a person in the courts. Definitely in the English and Singaporean courts and yes, even in the Malaysian courts. There are rules of evidence developed over centuries and these include the rule against hearsay, the rule that requires witnesses to turn up in court sit in the witness box and take an oath before almighty God that the evidence given shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. What is the purpose of taking the oath?

And why when Adam and Eve sinned against God by taking the fruit which he had forbidden them to eat did God ask them whether they had done it? Why did God bother to ask when He knew the answer to the question?

And for what purpose do the laws pertaining to slander and defamation exist?

You have displayed your contempt for the Word of God by refusing to condemn the use of vulgar language on this blog.

Either you are ignorant in regards to all of the above or your are simply cherry picking those aspects of the Word of God and those aspects of the law that suit your own personal view of the world and your subjective values in life.

And you dare to come here to impose your personal views of justice on us ignoring the Word and ignoring the laws of your own country?

If you anonymous bloggers who bring accusations in a manner that is contrary to the Word of God and the laws of your land feel strongly enough about it, then bring those accusations in a manner that complies with the Word of God and the laws of your country.

Until you do so, the continued fallacy of your approach will be exposed for all to consider.

Anonymous said...

Anon is right, get a proper grip on life and deal with the sin within this blog, your personal sin before looking for sin elsewhere, e.g in HIM, etc.

Well, the scriptures do say he that is without sin among you let him be the first to cast a stone.

And Jesus did say to take the beam (or plank) out of our own eyes before trying to change others.

Live in accordance with the scriptures before you go around hunting down the sins of others and spraying this blog with profanity.

Anonymous said...

All u guys out here are pitiful n pathetic. Ut words n intent r more poisonous n bent on tearing down than building up. Who r u then to judge what others say or experience? U r spouting nonsense yourselves too. So what if u use e bible here n there? U r no different from e medieval crusuaders who do all sorts of crimes all in e name of God, blah blah blah. or all sorts of terrorism in His name. Yes let e one who have no sin cast e first stone - u r definitely not one, so shut u trap. U r no better than a Pharisee, full of law n false righteous but not any spirit of grace. Keep that up, I'm sure u r well rewarded in your end days with all e virgins waiting for u in heaven, just like Osama n his righteous followers. Yes every word u say is e absolute truth n u r close to being Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Stop ur trolling bitch

Anonymous said...

Come on, threatening me some more, is this e best u can do? Bitch!

Anonymous said...

E lord this e lord that... Yes n u r e next prophet in line... Come, continue to pray... That all sorts of bad thing happen to me... U r His annointed... He shouldn't let u b....He will b ur vegeance right? Bitch!

Anonymous said...

Yes, I'm being exposed as a fallacy. So what? Let those who believe believe, let those who want to live in denial, do so too. Bitch!

Anonymous said...

May this blog continue to do its purpose, to expose all HIM hypocrisy n cult-like mind control culture. N for all including non-believers to see how righteous e Christians r, esp their words. Let them choose who to believe in, words that r vulgar, expressive but true to their intent, or words that may b politically correct, logical, blah blah blah but is in essential to no difference from harming n destroying. Yes and finally for e record, U Bitch!

Anonymous said...

Not one of my questions was answered. Why? I guess you were smart enough to know that any answers you provided would have absolutely skewered your world view.

Now there was another group of men in the New Testament who chose not to answer Jesus’ questions when they could discern that any answer they provided would skewer their argument. What were those fellows called? Hang on, you have just accused me of being one of them.

If you truly believe that I’m spouting nonsense, then please feel free to challenge the logic behind what I have posted. Your unwillingness to do so taken with your willingness to attack me personally only demonstrates you are unable to deny the logic supporting my posts.

In answer to your other wild assertions (and they are nothing more than unsubstantiated wild accusations), bear in mind that the owner of this blog has decided that this is a “free discussion forum”. You are telling me to shut up, to stop trolling etc. etc. How does trolling even come into it in a “free discussion forum”? Not unless you my dear controlling blogger have in your infinite wisdom decided to alter the owner’s purpose for this blog. You in your controlling manner appear to have decided that this blog is only for exposing “all HIM hypocrisy n cult-like mind control culture” and you are trying to hijack the blog to impose your views on others with abuse and profanity. So who is attempting to control others my dear blogger?

In your parallel universe you can judge HIM and its leaders with impunity and no one is permitted bring any word of correction that contradicts your judgement or even mount the semblance of a defence in support of the accused. No, when a word of correction is brought you will label that person “judgemental’.

You keep claiming that I am threatening you. Please explain to us how and in what way I am supposedly threatening you rather than simply say “I have been threatened”. I suggest the reason you feel threatened is nothing more than your conscience telling you loudly and clearly that you are flirting with sin and that you need to resist rather than yield to the sin.

You also assert that I lack the spirit of grace. So how do you suggest I expose the flaws in your reasoning and logic processes? Have you by the way extended the spirit of grace to HIM and its leaders? You claim you are exposing HIM publicly to warn others against being misled by HIM. Now you have been publicly exposed so others can see your character for what it is and see you for who you are. A large number will be warned off your ranting and foul language. It doesn’t feel so good now that you are on the receiving end does it?

Finally, you have taken the liberty to associate me with a female dog 5 times – well that on its own speaks volumes about your character doesn’t it?

Anonymous said...

The extract about the Shepherding Movement is a straight cut and paste from wikipedia.

It is a sad day indeed when wikipedia becomes our source of knowledge and truth.

Let's be clear about one thing. Wikipedia can be but is not always a reliable source of information.

Certainly wouldn't want to see university or even high school students quoting from wikipedia in their assignments.

Anonymous said...

And why is wikipedia not to be equated with Gospel truth?

In its own words:

"Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit."

We could be reading the words of a genius or the words of a clown and there is no way to tell the difference unless a process of careful checking and verification is undertaken.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous people like quoting from wikipedia. Perhaps it is for this reason?

"A similar difference can be seen between the Encyclopædia Britannica Online and Wikipedia: while the Britannica relies upon experts to create articles and releases them periodically in publications, Wikipedia relies on trust in anonymous users to constantly and quickly build content. Wikipedia is not based on expertise but rather an adaptation of the open source software adage "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow", and it produces and updates articles constantly."

Oops! Now I've fallen into the same trap and quoted from Wikipedia.

Anonymous said...

http://mathialee.wordpress.com/2010/04/27/what-we-can-learn-from-the-catholic-scandal/

Anonymous said...

http://www.factnet.org/straits.htm

Anonymous said...

http://www.antioch.sg/cgi-bin/HN_Open/get/messageboard/881/1/2/3/1/1.html?embed=-1&admin

Anonymous said...

http://www.eskimo.com/~scoleman/index.html

Anonymous said...

http://churchrevolution.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/the-shepherding-movement-2/

Anonymous said...

Who's there to define language to be foul language? You or who? If fuck you is offensive to you, then here's something more platable for you.

"Fornication Under Consent of the King" Is this foul language?

Combine the above with 'you'.

How about this?

Anonymous said...

!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&!@#$%^&*

Anonymous said...

Case closed. The prosecution crucified itself and continues to do so quite uncontrollably.

By the way, a friendly word of advice - don't use your colourful language when speaking with the police. It could result in an unpleasant surprise.

Software Development Malaysia said...

Hi,
I have read your blog and I appreciate the information which you shared here. It is really good read to me.

Thanks for sharing!

Online E-Learning Software said...

Nice Sharing!
We have an site study8home, Which promised to provide complete e-learning website and software solution and strive for customer satisfaction. Our e-learning software powers your online education with reliability and predictable costs.

Thanks

Vehicle Tracking System said...

Hi,
I am really admire the information which you shared here in your blog which is really good read to me.

Thanks

Guaranteed SEO Services said...

Hi,
I have read your blog and I appreciate the information which you shared here. It is really good read to me.

Thanks for sharing!

Anonymous said...

Many of the latest posts resemble those typical discussions on soccer: a) soccer fans who refused to listen anything uncomfortable about their favourite team and discredit any source of inside information and threaten those who dare to comment on that; b) insults toward soccer fans and, finally the inevitable commercials.

Anonymous said...

Ummmmmm.....

Let's see, it was the so-called insider who discredited himself or herself by voluntarily exercising his or her own free will to abuse those who had a different opinion and to use vile language that would not be condoned by any church.

The so-called insider was never threatened. However when presented with the scriptural truth (truth which the so-called insider did not contradict and seems to have accepted) the so-called insider either felt threatened or conveniently decided to feel threatened - a sure sign that the so-called insider is operating in sin without the fear of the Lord.

No one on this blog compelled the so-called insider to curse and swear so obscenely. Yes, it is a bit like a soccer match in some ways - it is just that all the cursing and swearing is coming from one team.

If you re-read the previous posts objectively you will see the matter is exactly as I have just described.

Anonymous said...

"No one on this blog compelled the so-called insider to curse and swear so obscenely. Yes, it is a bit like a soccer match in some ways - it is just that all the cursing and swearing is coming from one team."

Better than betrayals (of truth) that lurk hidden in the other teams...

Anonymous said...

Ah yes.

The obscene curser now brands us liars despite his or her the continuing failure to provide reasoning in support of the wild accusations.

So in the obscene curser's universe everyone who dares to disagree is a liar.

It's so simple even Dr Watson could comprehend this modus operandi.

Now where have we seen this before? Oh yes – the same abuse was leveled at Bob the Hat.

Next trick please. Preferably in the Queen's English if you don't mind. After all even the average clown can boast more than one trick.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Folks, please lay off this so-called “obscene curser”.

This person has already given us a detailed snapshot of his/her character and I frankly don’t expect this person’s character to change for the better any time soon.

I think if you keep exposing this person for who he/she really is, sooner or later you are going to invite another of those sinful outbursts. Please do nothing further to invite that sinful outburst. Together we have a joint responsibility to ensure sin does not abound on this blog.

Take care and remember to wear a hat when you go out in the sun.

Anonymous said...

Fair enough, Bob Katter's is wearing the hat of a good coach soccer who tries to avoid more quarrel in the soccer field.

Anonymous said...

2 Timothy 2:23-26

“Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

Anonymous said...

But foolish(lacking good sense or judgment) and unlearned (ignorant) questions avoid knowing that they generate strifes.

Anonymous said...

Proverbs 10:19

"When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise."


Proverbs 26:4

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."

Bob Katter's hat said...

Thank you to an earlier blogger for your kind words. However to tell the truth I could not honestly take any credit for helping anybody avoid quarrels on the soccer field.

The way I see things this isn’t a soccer field and no one is quarrelling in the true sense of the word. Someone made some controversial points very strongly and has been challenged to support those controversial points with logic and reasoning. I haven’t been able to discern any logic and reasoning yet but it is quite clear that plenty of abuse has been directed towards those who were audacious enough issue the challenge.

It would be fascinating to see if any logic and reasoning eventually does materialise. Personally it is so much easier to make a point persuasively when logic and reasoning is provided.

In the meantime we will just have to make do with the bad language and suggestions that other bloggers who have a different opinion are fools.

It is free society and if someone decides that bad language and abusing others is the best way to make a point then those of us who have to read the bad language and abuse should be able to decide for ourselves the extent to which the bad language and abuse is persuasive.

Anonymous said...

It has been written that I am a bitch, a liar and a fool.

That is an interesting trifecta.

I’ve also been abused with reference to a lewd sexual act.

I wonder what else this blogger is going to call me or tell me to do?

Despite all of the above I’m going to turn the other cheek and simply offer this blogger another friendly piece of advice encouraging change in his or her ways. The following is a quote from Matthew 5:22:

“But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

Hope this piece of scripture isn’t misinterpreted as a threat since I’ve merely quoted it verbatim from the NIV version.

Anonymous said...

Titus 3:9-11

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

Anonymous said...

Good point.

There have probably been more than 2 warnings issued.

So it is time to have nothing further to do with the abusive person just as you have written.

I'm taking Bob hat's suggestion and making myself scarce.

Anonymous said...

!@#$%^&&^%$#@!

Anonymous said...

ii1ii

Anonymous said...

http://www.joyofsatan.org/

Anonymous said...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/12/but_the_shepherd_never_gets_fl.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+scienceblogs%2Fpharyngula+%28Pharyngula%29

Anonymous said...

Hope is so good, Hope is so good, Hope is so good, it's so good to me...=)

Anonymous said...

John 8:32 “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Seek truth from the Word of God and know the truth...Knowing the truth will seek you free from errors... Break free...

Anonymous said...

Power New Testament

21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord. Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of the heavens, but the one who does the will of My Father, the One in the heavens.
22. Many will say to Me in that Day, ‘Lord. Lord! Did we
not prophesy in Your name? And we cast out demons in Your name, and we did many miracles in Your name?’
23. And then I will declare to them that ‘I never knew you: you working without Torah must continually depart from Me.’”

Anonymous said...

On that analysis it appears that the blogger who posted !@#$%^&&^%$#@! a few weeks ago is some considerable strife.

Anonymous said...

Acts 20:28-31

"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears…"

Anonymous said...

Internet rule #19 - "Do not feed the trolls."

Seriously though ... it would be nice to have some good testimonies of God's grace. Even though people make mistakes, but certainly God's purposes cannot be thwarted, right? He is still building His church! (Which, by the way, the Bible defines as the people whose hearts are loyal and obedient to Jesus. The Bible never mentions any denomination/movement name.)

Anonymous said...

Why not u guys just visit some different churches in your locality for a change? just take a break from Hope for a few months. if it don;t work u can always return.

i felt an organization of Hope category to be lead by someone who isn't of relevant academic qualifications is kinda peculiar though. it's still acceptable if junior leaders have not been to bible college. it's acceptable too if this Hope instead call itself a charitable organization. but why elevate yourself to something that u are not?

Anonymous said...

A blessed New Year 2012 to all of you.

As we begin a new year, let us forgive one another and move on for there is life after Hope and there are still much that our the Lord has for us to learn and to do. It is my hope and prayer that we put behind our bitter experiences behind and look forward for new things in this new year 2012.

A Scripture comes to mind and I share the passage that it is taken from:

Isaiah 43:16-21:

16This is what the LORD says—
he who made a way through the sea,
a path through the mighty waters,
17who drew out the chariots and horses,
the army and reinforcements together,
and they lay there, never to rise again,
extinguished, snuffed out like a wick:
18“Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the past.
19See, I am doing a new thing!
Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?
I am making a way in the desert
and streams in the wasteland.
20The wild animals honor me,
the jackals and the owls,
because I provide water in the desert
and streams in the wasteland,
to give drink to my people, my chosen,
21the people I formed for myself
that they may proclaim my praise.

We are God's chosen people and He is the same sovereign God who caused the sea to open for His people and may we find that He will make a way for us to walk in and provide for us even as He provided for the wild animals, jackals and the owls. After all, did not our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 6:26 "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"

May the Lord's abundant blessings be upon each and everyone of you in this new year of 2012 !

Anonymous said...

http://www.thefactsite.com/2009/01/true-meaning-of-word-fuck.html

Anonymous said...

To be honest, being a church leader isn't really such a big deal, unless you manage to exert such a strong influence like Kong Hee of CHC or Lawrence Khong of FCBC.

Many church leaders, particularly the part-timers at the middle and lower levels, are known to be merely appointed by the senior leadership. And church leadership, as one of the earlier posts mentioned, does not carry any authority at all.

Why is this so? Firstly, church members/visitors in a Care Group are only there to fellowship. They DO NOT depend on the cell leader or the senior leaders for a living. They DO NOT get paid by the church for being in fellowship or for being part of the church. Hence, there is absolutely no tangible incentive for anyone to submit to the leaders in the literal sense of the world. Many church members/visitors in Hope, especially in the adult congregation, are only trying to "be nice" when they show some form of respect for the leaders. This is based on recent personal observation in the church in Singapore.

Of course, the other matter is the way that the church is being managed. Although Pastor Jeff has introduced many improvements over the tyrannical and legalistic reign under Pastor Benjamin Lee Kwok Chi, such as abolishing the stupid BGR accountability rule to "shepherds", there are still lots of room where other improvements could have been sped up faster. Most notably, the criteria for church membership.

vuhelp.net said...

Nice blogger

Anonymous said...

I think you kids have got to grow up.
Kriengsak Chareonwongsak was a SNAKE( pride , political ambitions ,denying that he is God's child, idolatry , financial misconduct, manipulation of brainwashed youngsters and followers )

and the pastor ( PN) was a SNAKE as well! ( Lust , adultery , hypocrisy, Pride ( refusing to step down - Power ) , taught idolatry and ENFORCED LEGALISM to brain washed youngsters, followers) was obviously a disgusting snake as well.
Next time you kids see such charlatans , please just walk away and call the authorities. Even if the judges on earth do not get them. Satan will have their company.